I loved every bit of this. And I would go so far as to say that even believing Christians are likely to spend part of their lives as cultural Christians. I’ve had times when I’ve had a deep and mystical relationship to my faith and there have been long stretches when I was showing up because showing up is what I do. There are seasons in faith like there are seasons in marriage, or parenthood, or any other part of life. There’s beauty in showing up even when your heart is not at that exact moment on fire with God’s love.
I enjoyed the piece, and amongst other things it has convinced me to avoid the Dawkins-Peterson 'debate', which sounds like it went as badly as could have been predicted.
A lot of this reminds me of the meme of two scientists at a climate change conference, where one turns to the other and asks, "what if it's all a big hoax and we make the world a better place for no reason." Climate change alarmists love this meme. Climate change skeptics find it pretty annoying.
To analogize to cultural Christianity, I think the new atheists have changed how young people view Christianity from 'Christianity is just being nice to people' (love/ forgiveness/ faith hope & charity), which is what I grew up with in the UK in the 1990s, to Christianity as a source of cruelty, corruption, and oppression. Crusades and witch burnings and pedophile priests (as you uh, touch on, above). A lot of secular liberal Americans I meet really really do not think cultural Christianity will build a better world.
If I think about my own changing views (in many ways following a similar but much milder path to your own, 'mystic experience' included), one of the first big things was to realize that actually, Christianity was a positive change historically. Like, in Northern Europe the 10th century for example. (Though this doesn't necessarily make it better than moderate modern day Islam for example). That later made me receptive to the philosophical proofs (which I'd encountered in university philosophy but wasn't moved by).
I think your post helps with this 'PR campaign', and I heartily endorse the idea that ordinary individuals being part of a community and engaging in community works and charity is the best way to engage. These things are proven to have great mental health benefits, whether one believes in God or not. But perhaps even more importantly, what defenders of cultural Christianity spend their time talking about will influence how it's seen by outsiders, and I think the more posts we have about building community and helping your neighbours, the better.
I attributed way too much negativity to Christianity when I was younger, without ever realizing I was making an attribution error. Christianity never made the claim that it could make men perfect. In fact, it was the opposite. But now that it has receded I can’t help but seeing that it was obviously a sort of mitigant to some of our worst impulses. Not that some people don’t go way too far with it. WWJD is a surprisingly powerful thing to snap you back into decent behavior.
Yowza! The Word according to Some Guy, old & new testimony, with sermon to follow! (And a beautiful poetic image of the hidden sun revealed in illuminated dust.) You win the internet tonight, buddy!
And thanks for the review of the Dawkins-Peterson debate & saving me from having to listen to it (although I am feeling a dark attraction to it - a bit of horrid fascination for some outrage porn 😎).
The Dawkins-Peterson thing is one of the few conversations where I feel like I actually learned absolutely nothing. Usually I feel like I can glean something but man, yeah. Not good.
I suspect that you are aware of this; other readers may not be. Culture Protestantism was "a flow of Protestant intellectual life in Germany during the decades from 1860 to the inter-war period ." "The theologian Albrecht Ritschl is considered the "father of cultural Protestantism". For him, ethical action was part of the path to the kingdom of God , which was interpreted as an adaptation to the respective human reality. Some of Ritschl's students later became spokesmen for cultural Protestantism ( Martin Rade , Adolf Harnack and Ernst Troeltsch )." See https://second.wiki/wiki/kulturprotestantismus. David Bentley Hart has a fascinating analysis of American religion: ""Most Americans think of themselves as Christians. But the only religion in America that ever flourished was America. […] Christianity has never succeeded in planting itself in America. Our religion is a kind of Orphic post-Christian mystery religion based on wealth, power and one’s personal relationship with a kind of gnostic Jesus."(Source: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/.../david-bentley-hart-the.../) From a Fb post by Rob Grayson, an insightful interpreter of DBH's work.
Thanks! I was not aware of any of this. I need to dig into DBH more than I have, which is mostly a few youtube videos. He has a lovely, almost spooky voice. I’d love if he narrated a horror story or two.
Eh. People are leaving the church in droves, and it’s probably for a reason! I see no need to hop back onto a sinking ship.
The church is not a community “jostling together in a common direction,” it's a group with membership requirements. You can join as an outsider, but if you really want to be part of it, eventually you’ll be asked to get with the program or slowly shut out. Not always! But generally, unless you plan on converting anyway, all of your relationships are a ticking time bomb.
I tried pretty hard when I was younger to fit in at churches as a non-believer. It did not go well. It went so badly I won’t try it again
. My experiments were with small Baptist churches in small towns. I think it could maybe work with a Quaker meeting or maybe an Episcopal church. Certainly a Universalist Unitarian church would be fine. I’ve never lived in a large city but I’m guessing there would be a wider range of religious options there.
I think you're onto something in your impressions that you might do well at an Episcopalian or Unitarian church. I have pretty extensive experience with both (though in fairness it was only one location of each; I'm sure there's some variety in the vibes and sensibilities of different churches within both institutions), and I found people to be kind and welcoming and without the (sometimes quite overt) "you're going to hell if you don't do things my way" vibes you often find in evangelical or Catholic churches.
Also, in case you don't know, the Anglican musical tradition is breathtakingly beautiful. If you go to an Episcopalian church with a good choir that sings the traditional pieces, you'll hear a lot of really gorgeous music.
How would you define "fitting in?" Are you looking for casual friendships, deep friendships, romance with a religious person, or something different altogether? I honestly don't understand why someone would, as Bones put it "really want to be part" of a religious group, yet not "get with the program." In my religious circles, anyone who's wanted to learn, or at least hang out and be respectful, has been welcome, and able to make friends. The only ones who even approached "unwelcome" status have been those who only wanted to be part of the group so they could pull people away.
I won’t go in to details because it’s kind of a long story but I grew up in small towns and lived in small towns until I was 24. In small, southern towns, church is where everything happens. Almost all volunteering opportunities are through churches.
If you want to serve the community, churches are the ones with the tutoring programs, bag lunch programs, addiction recovery programs. They’re also the only game in town when it comes to singing in a choir.
It’s where you meet potential employers and employees. It’s where you get opportunities to learn leadership skills.
If you’re single, it’s a place to meet a romantic partner.
At age 24 I moved to a bigger city and there were a lot more opportunities to socialize without church, so that need went away.
By the way I just wanted to say “Of course if there are reasons this absolutely can’t work, you shouldn’t do it, but at the same time we should give an honest effort to make it work before arriving too quickly at step one.” Absolutely no judgement or anything from me. It’s hard to be part of a community these days and I write this as a hypocrite because my wife hates getting up early in the morning and that prevents all kinds of things.
What kind of prompts do you use to get such great AI illustrations?
I had an experience of seeing God once too, or Jesus, who turned out to be pretty much the same. Like you, I believe that some nice, gentle, cultural glue religion of some sort would be good for all, but talking about my experience is impossible, really. After my experience, I became Catholic but then the Catholic Church began to implode due to its total and complete gayness which I sort of never noticed before joining up. My husband and I still go, though.
I look up some relevant words form the art history of biblical art and that helps to guide it, but I also don’t know how replicable it is. I basically think about what I would need if I was ChatGPT and I had been trained on internet data.
Total and complete gayness made me laugh. I’ve heard rumors and stories of some strange excesses that make me think the people would be better citizens and community members if they were just gay in a different context. I think of these things differently now that I’m older. How much of what I saw that repelled me when I was younger was a call to duty to fix those things? And, of course, how much of what I want to fix is there to a purpose I just can’t see?
Scott's statement about the boringness of cultural Christianity stuck in my craw as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to it. I'm also in the process of darkening the doorsteps of my former faith, potentially in ways you describe.
I have a hard time reconciling the oft-testified truth claims of religion with the same degree of accuracy I use to understand and solve problems at work. But it's starting to seem like when it comes to people, relationships, and communities, there's an entirely different set of principles and systems in play that is more accessible through religious or spiritual narrative. And when the strictly secular crucifies it, something essential to human mind, life, and experience dies.
I didn’t take it that way and I quite like Scott. He gave up a kidney! And while I disagree with him all the time he seems to be in a mental sweet spot where he’s both different enough to be evocative and also not threatening to any of more beliefs. And also I don’t know if “Cultural Christianity” has a well-defined meaning yet.
I’m in agreement with you that trying to reconcile the things on the surface level with science is probably not as fruitful as it could be. The way I think of the Bible stories and really most religious stories is that people were trying to keep faithful records of “Cosmic Horseshit” but it mostly boils down to, expect something of yourself, have honor, love and care for others, spend serious time thinking about what is right, and find the courage to do it. I think Dawkins too quickly dismisses something that has been worn over by time like a river rock.
After fifty years of believing in an inerrantist way, steeped in apologetics, I’ve left practicing church going but still am compelled by Jesus. I’m part of a community of friends and family, some of whom sort of believe like I do, all of whom are loving people around them in mundane ways. This is possible. I recently stumbled upon a book, Stalking The Wild Pendulum, which I think you would like. Peace.
Jesus is a haunting kind of a guy. There’s a homeless lady always outside of my library and while I’ve not become super involved in her life or anything I’ve gone against my instincts in part because I know if I don’t then probably no one else will either. I’d like to think that’s the thing I’m “supposed” to do.
I will give it a google but lots to read these days, much of which is unexpected.
PS - Jesus IS a haunting kind of guy. Most of the time, from what we read in the Gospels, he’s always talking over the heads of everyone and speaking to the heart, to the better angels of our nature. But you can’t shake the impression that, if what we read is mostly true, that he was like Einstein trying to teach theoretical mathematics to first graders. Even more amazing that he was in his early 30s.
I increasingly am removing the “I SHOULD do such and such” from my life. In my life this kind of weight has lead to either pride (bad version) or despair. You are obviously a very good and kind person. It may be woo-woo and cliche, but I think you’ll be ok to follow your heart’s instinct to love. Grace and peace to you.
Amazing piece! 💕 And I know there is little time in your busy life, but I think you would love reading the writings of Charles Peirce if you haven't already. He was a 19th century polymath/inventor/mathematician/scientist/logician/philosopher who insisted on Math and Human Experience as the basis of all discovery. You will be hooked. :) Read the man himself, not the commentators.
Also nominalism and idealism are so inherently anti-life and reality that it moves me to pity that someone could dredge up word count.
Holding a spark of wonder and curiosity at the ”universe” is to acknowledge being part of the whole. Everything is interconnected - from a mote of pollen to our sun.
I would like to request Josh gifting sentience (generalized AI) on a shop vac or CNC. Please don’t make it like WallE because a lonely robot brings me to tears. Oddly reminds me of an old show I remember fondly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Chung%27s_Doomsday_Defense
I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet, but there’s a clip of Dawkins and Harris discussing sister/sister incest and its morality and my first thought was “Hitchens would never have indulged this shit.”
I loved every bit of this. And I would go so far as to say that even believing Christians are likely to spend part of their lives as cultural Christians. I’ve had times when I’ve had a deep and mystical relationship to my faith and there have been long stretches when I was showing up because showing up is what I do. There are seasons in faith like there are seasons in marriage, or parenthood, or any other part of life. There’s beauty in showing up even when your heart is not at that exact moment on fire with God’s love.
I agree with all of this. I’m trying to be better a bit at a time.
Brilliant, funny, and eminently thoughtful. Your writing is inspiring and important. Thank you for your hard work crafting such a wonderful article.
And this was after I mercifully removed several thousand words of apologetics!
I enjoyed the piece, and amongst other things it has convinced me to avoid the Dawkins-Peterson 'debate', which sounds like it went as badly as could have been predicted.
A lot of this reminds me of the meme of two scientists at a climate change conference, where one turns to the other and asks, "what if it's all a big hoax and we make the world a better place for no reason." Climate change alarmists love this meme. Climate change skeptics find it pretty annoying.
To analogize to cultural Christianity, I think the new atheists have changed how young people view Christianity from 'Christianity is just being nice to people' (love/ forgiveness/ faith hope & charity), which is what I grew up with in the UK in the 1990s, to Christianity as a source of cruelty, corruption, and oppression. Crusades and witch burnings and pedophile priests (as you uh, touch on, above). A lot of secular liberal Americans I meet really really do not think cultural Christianity will build a better world.
If I think about my own changing views (in many ways following a similar but much milder path to your own, 'mystic experience' included), one of the first big things was to realize that actually, Christianity was a positive change historically. Like, in Northern Europe the 10th century for example. (Though this doesn't necessarily make it better than moderate modern day Islam for example). That later made me receptive to the philosophical proofs (which I'd encountered in university philosophy but wasn't moved by).
I think your post helps with this 'PR campaign', and I heartily endorse the idea that ordinary individuals being part of a community and engaging in community works and charity is the best way to engage. These things are proven to have great mental health benefits, whether one believes in God or not. But perhaps even more importantly, what defenders of cultural Christianity spend their time talking about will influence how it's seen by outsiders, and I think the more posts we have about building community and helping your neighbours, the better.
I attributed way too much negativity to Christianity when I was younger, without ever realizing I was making an attribution error. Christianity never made the claim that it could make men perfect. In fact, it was the opposite. But now that it has receded I can’t help but seeing that it was obviously a sort of mitigant to some of our worst impulses. Not that some people don’t go way too far with it. WWJD is a surprisingly powerful thing to snap you back into decent behavior.
This is my favorite piece of writing of yours. Love it!
Thanks Nuke! Share the good word of Josh around the congregation.
Yowza! The Word according to Some Guy, old & new testimony, with sermon to follow! (And a beautiful poetic image of the hidden sun revealed in illuminated dust.) You win the internet tonight, buddy!
And thanks for the review of the Dawkins-Peterson debate & saving me from having to listen to it (although I am feeling a dark attraction to it - a bit of horrid fascination for some outrage porn 😎).
The Dawkins-Peterson thing is one of the few conversations where I feel like I actually learned absolutely nothing. Usually I feel like I can glean something but man, yeah. Not good.
I suspect that you are aware of this; other readers may not be. Culture Protestantism was "a flow of Protestant intellectual life in Germany during the decades from 1860 to the inter-war period ." "The theologian Albrecht Ritschl is considered the "father of cultural Protestantism". For him, ethical action was part of the path to the kingdom of God , which was interpreted as an adaptation to the respective human reality. Some of Ritschl's students later became spokesmen for cultural Protestantism ( Martin Rade , Adolf Harnack and Ernst Troeltsch )." See https://second.wiki/wiki/kulturprotestantismus. David Bentley Hart has a fascinating analysis of American religion: ""Most Americans think of themselves as Christians. But the only religion in America that ever flourished was America. […] Christianity has never succeeded in planting itself in America. Our religion is a kind of Orphic post-Christian mystery religion based on wealth, power and one’s personal relationship with a kind of gnostic Jesus."(Source: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/.../david-bentley-hart-the.../) From a Fb post by Rob Grayson, an insightful interpreter of DBH's work.
Thanks! I was not aware of any of this. I need to dig into DBH more than I have, which is mostly a few youtube videos. He has a lovely, almost spooky voice. I’d love if he narrated a horror story or two.
Eh. People are leaving the church in droves, and it’s probably for a reason! I see no need to hop back onto a sinking ship.
The church is not a community “jostling together in a common direction,” it's a group with membership requirements. You can join as an outsider, but if you really want to be part of it, eventually you’ll be asked to get with the program or slowly shut out. Not always! But generally, unless you plan on converting anyway, all of your relationships are a ticking time bomb.
I tried pretty hard when I was younger to fit in at churches as a non-believer. It did not go well. It went so badly I won’t try it again
. My experiments were with small Baptist churches in small towns. I think it could maybe work with a Quaker meeting or maybe an Episcopal church. Certainly a Universalist Unitarian church would be fine. I’ve never lived in a large city but I’m guessing there would be a wider range of religious options there.
I think you're onto something in your impressions that you might do well at an Episcopalian or Unitarian church. I have pretty extensive experience with both (though in fairness it was only one location of each; I'm sure there's some variety in the vibes and sensibilities of different churches within both institutions), and I found people to be kind and welcoming and without the (sometimes quite overt) "you're going to hell if you don't do things my way" vibes you often find in evangelical or Catholic churches.
Also, in case you don't know, the Anglican musical tradition is breathtakingly beautiful. If you go to an Episcopalian church with a good choir that sings the traditional pieces, you'll hear a lot of really gorgeous music.
How would you define "fitting in?" Are you looking for casual friendships, deep friendships, romance with a religious person, or something different altogether? I honestly don't understand why someone would, as Bones put it "really want to be part" of a religious group, yet not "get with the program." In my religious circles, anyone who's wanted to learn, or at least hang out and be respectful, has been welcome, and able to make friends. The only ones who even approached "unwelcome" status have been those who only wanted to be part of the group so they could pull people away.
I won’t go in to details because it’s kind of a long story but I grew up in small towns and lived in small towns until I was 24. In small, southern towns, church is where everything happens. Almost all volunteering opportunities are through churches.
If you want to serve the community, churches are the ones with the tutoring programs, bag lunch programs, addiction recovery programs. They’re also the only game in town when it comes to singing in a choir.
It’s where you meet potential employers and employees. It’s where you get opportunities to learn leadership skills.
If you’re single, it’s a place to meet a romantic partner.
At age 24 I moved to a bigger city and there were a lot more opportunities to socialize without church, so that need went away.
By the way I just wanted to say “Of course if there are reasons this absolutely can’t work, you shouldn’t do it, but at the same time we should give an honest effort to make it work before arriving too quickly at step one.” Absolutely no judgement or anything from me. It’s hard to be part of a community these days and I write this as a hypocrite because my wife hates getting up early in the morning and that prevents all kinds of things.
You’re good. I’m not offended or anything.
Also sorry for the lateness of the reply. 1am posting is taking a lot out of me.
I love this so much.
Thanks Betsy!
I loved this! So much to discuss but, life needs my typing thumbs elsewhere at the moment.
What kind of prompts do you use to get such great AI illustrations?
I had an experience of seeing God once too, or Jesus, who turned out to be pretty much the same. Like you, I believe that some nice, gentle, cultural glue religion of some sort would be good for all, but talking about my experience is impossible, really. After my experience, I became Catholic but then the Catholic Church began to implode due to its total and complete gayness which I sort of never noticed before joining up. My husband and I still go, though.
I look up some relevant words form the art history of biblical art and that helps to guide it, but I also don’t know how replicable it is. I basically think about what I would need if I was ChatGPT and I had been trained on internet data.
Total and complete gayness made me laugh. I’ve heard rumors and stories of some strange excesses that make me think the people would be better citizens and community members if they were just gay in a different context. I think of these things differently now that I’m older. How much of what I saw that repelled me when I was younger was a call to duty to fix those things? And, of course, how much of what I want to fix is there to a purpose I just can’t see?
Scott's statement about the boringness of cultural Christianity stuck in my craw as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to it. I'm also in the process of darkening the doorsteps of my former faith, potentially in ways you describe.
I have a hard time reconciling the oft-testified truth claims of religion with the same degree of accuracy I use to understand and solve problems at work. But it's starting to seem like when it comes to people, relationships, and communities, there's an entirely different set of principles and systems in play that is more accessible through religious or spiritual narrative. And when the strictly secular crucifies it, something essential to human mind, life, and experience dies.
I didn’t take it that way and I quite like Scott. He gave up a kidney! And while I disagree with him all the time he seems to be in a mental sweet spot where he’s both different enough to be evocative and also not threatening to any of more beliefs. And also I don’t know if “Cultural Christianity” has a well-defined meaning yet.
I’m in agreement with you that trying to reconcile the things on the surface level with science is probably not as fruitful as it could be. The way I think of the Bible stories and really most religious stories is that people were trying to keep faithful records of “Cosmic Horseshit” but it mostly boils down to, expect something of yourself, have honor, love and care for others, spend serious time thinking about what is right, and find the courage to do it. I think Dawkins too quickly dismisses something that has been worn over by time like a river rock.
Funny and erudite, as always; thank you!
After fifty years of believing in an inerrantist way, steeped in apologetics, I’ve left practicing church going but still am compelled by Jesus. I’m part of a community of friends and family, some of whom sort of believe like I do, all of whom are loving people around them in mundane ways. This is possible. I recently stumbled upon a book, Stalking The Wild Pendulum, which I think you would like. Peace.
Jesus is a haunting kind of a guy. There’s a homeless lady always outside of my library and while I’ve not become super involved in her life or anything I’ve gone against my instincts in part because I know if I don’t then probably no one else will either. I’d like to think that’s the thing I’m “supposed” to do.
I will give it a google but lots to read these days, much of which is unexpected.
PS - Jesus IS a haunting kind of guy. Most of the time, from what we read in the Gospels, he’s always talking over the heads of everyone and speaking to the heart, to the better angels of our nature. But you can’t shake the impression that, if what we read is mostly true, that he was like Einstein trying to teach theoretical mathematics to first graders. Even more amazing that he was in his early 30s.
I increasingly am removing the “I SHOULD do such and such” from my life. In my life this kind of weight has lead to either pride (bad version) or despair. You are obviously a very good and kind person. It may be woo-woo and cliche, but I think you’ll be ok to follow your heart’s instinct to love. Grace and peace to you.
You have a lot of good stuff in this post.
But, it’s much too long.
But maybe it should’ve been three separate posts. Or five.
Or maybe you just need to be better at editing your own writing.
But you’re definitely on the right track with the content, IMNSHO.
This was so, so much longer.
One of the best things I’ve read. You get this! Thank you!
Thanks!
Amazing piece! 💕 And I know there is little time in your busy life, but I think you would love reading the writings of Charles Peirce if you haven't already. He was a 19th century polymath/inventor/mathematician/scientist/logician/philosopher who insisted on Math and Human Experience as the basis of all discovery. You will be hooked. :) Read the man himself, not the commentators.
I am going to keep a sticky note of all of these people. I have a lot of reading to do on behalf of my son but I will pick this up.
Long live Hitchens! Long live humanism!
Also nominalism and idealism are so inherently anti-life and reality that it moves me to pity that someone could dredge up word count.
Holding a spark of wonder and curiosity at the ”universe” is to acknowledge being part of the whole. Everything is interconnected - from a mote of pollen to our sun.
I would like to request Josh gifting sentience (generalized AI) on a shop vac or CNC. Please don’t make it like WallE because a lonely robot brings me to tears. Oddly reminds me of an old show I remember fondly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Chung%27s_Doomsday_Defense
I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet, but there’s a clip of Dawkins and Harris discussing sister/sister incest and its morality and my first thought was “Hitchens would never have indulged this shit.”
There will be more Josh. Don’t worry.
My internal mental safety mechanism has kicked in and I can only remember I need to watch a cooking show.